Quick Questions—Dr. Kevin Doyle & Maeve O’Neill
Addiction and recovery experts ask each other one big question
NOTE: This was originally published for the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation’s monthly Recovery Advocacy Update. If you’d like to receive our advocacy emails, subscribe today.
Kevin Doyle, EdD, is the president and CEO of the Hazelden Betty Ford Graduate School of Addiction Studies, the longest continuous, accredited provider of substance use counselor training in the United States, offering both onsite and distance-learning master’s degrees in integrated addiction and mental health counseling. His career includes more than 35 years as a licensed professional counselor, clinical supervisor, and non-profit executive. He is licensed in both Virginia and Minnesota.
Maeve O’Neill, MEd, is a licensed professional counselor and supervisor, and a longtime consultant, coach and educator who has held leadership roles at Circa Behavioral Healthcare Solutions, All Sober, Rogers Behavioral Health, All Campuses, Acadia Healthcare, Phoenix House and elsewhere. She also was a behavioral health surveyor for The Joint Commission and an adjunct professor at Marymount University. She lives in Texas.
The two met 30 years ago and recently jumped on a Zoom call to reconnect and ask each other one big question.
1 MAEVE: Kevin, what’s the most important thing people need to know about working in the addiction field?
DR. DOYLE: It’s hard to narrow it down to just one. But the very first thing that comes to mind is for students to understand that the counselor-patient/client relationship is a professional one. Our students may have had personal interactions with folks through Twelve Step programs, for example, or in their families. But when you move into this field in a professional way, you’re taking on that professional identity. And so boundaries are really important. Counseling is a professional transaction. Even though it feels personal — sometimes I even use the word ‘intimate’ because you, as a counselor or a social worker or a psychologist, a helping professional in general, hear very personal things — but it’s a professional relationship which requires training. It requires expertise. It requires supervision. And it requires having good boundaries. I think it’s really important to understand that it’s different from the transactions that occur in the self-help community — which are also fantastic, but different.
Secondly, I think it’s important to understand that you can’t help everyone. There are no cures. You can provide a good treatment experience, but not every outcome will be what the professional clinician, or the patient and their family, desires. Ultimately, people have autonomy, and they have choice. And substance use disorders compromise choice, so it’s always a complex situation. I do think you can and must give everyone a good experience in treatment. That’s absolutely what they deserve. And if they don’t meet their goals immediately and want to take another run at abstinence or more holistic growth through additional therapy, for example — even months or years down the road, they’ll say, ‘you know, I had a good experience the last time I reached out for help and I’m going to do that again.’ As clinicians, though, knowing your limits and boundaries, I think, is sort of where that all starts.
MAEVE: Right. They can bring their personal experiences to the profession, and even if they don’t have them, they can learn how to be a professional in the field and set expectations that are realistic and appropriate.
DR. DOYLE: Exactly. You often hear people say nobody makes a better counselor than someone who’s been through this before. But you don’t typically hear the same about medicine or psychology or social work. While personal lived experience can certainly help inform your passion and even important skills like empathy, there’s a knowledge base of professionalism that is really crucial.
1 DR. DOYLE: Maeve, in your many roles over 30 years, you’ve always worked to lessen the stigma associated with substance use and mental health conditions. And while stigma is still alive and well, I don’t think it’s as strong as it once was. How do you see it in the future?
MAEVE: I hope over the next 30 years, we’ll see people coming out and not just acknowledging their addiction and recovery but being proud, really proud of it. To really just be who you are. That’s the goal.
We need to continue modeling openness and conversation at every level, which will not only normalize the condition but inspire people to get help and/or help others.
At least once a month, I get a call from a high school student or a graduate who is interested in exploring a clinical profession and asks, ‘Can I interview you or find out what it’s like?’ I love those calls because you get to inspire and motivate and excite them hopefully to enter the field, and then ultimately mentor some of them. We sometimes contribute to the prevention of stigma simply by being out there being out there — inviting others to take an interest.
A company I’ve worked closely with recently is All Sober — a digital hub designed to guide individuals and families to the inspiration, information, resources and support they need for treatment, recovery and a sober life. A big part of our mission is to provide positive content that normalizes addiction as a medical condition and makes clear that treatment is effective and people do recover and have great lives in recovery. We also communicate that if it doesn’t end well, or is a rocky road, for the person in or seeking recovery, those around them can still be ok. As a child of addiction, I often had to remind myself that if my parents didn’t get well, I could still be well and contribute to the world. I think those positive, inspiring messages of hope are critical no matter what path you’re on.
KEVIN: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s so inspirational when people will put it out there, that ‘I’m a person in recovery.’ I’ve talked to people who say, I don’t know anyone in recovery. I’m like, ‘yes you do. You just don’t know that you do.’ We want to be respectful of confidentiality and privacy, and of course, being open about recovery is an individual decision. But I have so much respect for people who want to share their stories and give some hope to people that yes, recovery is possible. It’s such a great and necessary thing for everyone to hear and see.
